Listen can we get one thing straight John Silver was not “planning to reunite James with the love of his life for an entire season” he knew that Thomas was alive since before he thought Madi was dead and only chose to use that knowledge when it was convenient for him
and like. if he was doing it for james then he why didn’t he just?? free thomas?? and let them go off together??
I mean that was going to be my next post but yes
What do you think, when should he have done that?
um, immediately? John Silver knows how completely losing Thomas destroyed James, and that James would give anything to have him back again, and yet he waits until ending the war is convenient to him before shipping James off. If Silver really was doing it “for James” because he cared so much about him then why the fuck did he wait and let James keep suffering as he missed Thomas every second of every day
But also, like, shipping aside it is demonstrably untrue that Silver was ‘plotting to reunite them all season” like canonically he had that information for a prolonged period of time before he revealed it, he literally tells Madi he knew since before he thought Madi was dead, regardless of when he “should” have told James it is canon that he did not as soon as he had found out
Hmm.
So he sent Morgan to Savannah, and Morgan came back at a time where Flint was imprisoned by Eleanor. Should Silver have sent a letter to the fort?
“Dear Flint,
I just found out that Thomas Hamilton is alive! Unfortunately, you’re sitting in a cell right now, but I guess you don’t mind Eleanor reading this message. Also, Billy is tryint to get me to kill you, but what else is new. Let’s stay in touch, yeah? The cache should be here soon. Yours, etc., John Silver.”
They only saw each other again at the Underhill plantation. Should those have been his first words to Flint?
“Capain, good to see you! We’ve got this Spanish invasion at our hands, but since I know hat you keep suffering as you miss Thomas every second of every day, I think it’s my duty as a friend to tell you that Thomas Hamilton is alive and in Savannah, oh, by the way, where is Madi?”
Only then Flint delivered him the message that Madi was dead, but I assume that in order to be a good friend, Silver should have found the time to tell Flint about Thomas.
Of course, then there were those days they spent on Maroon Island plotting their campaign before the governor sent message of Madi still being alive, and I assume that Silver should have made it his priority to care about Flint’s love life rather than the loss of his sgnificant other. That’s what a good friend would do, doubtlessly. Since, you know, Flint was missing Thomas every second of every day, and suffering so much.
Come on. There’s reasonable criticism at a characters’ actions, and then there’s stuff like this that’s just … not very reasonable at all.
I know we have different view points, but I honestly have to say, I think you’re way off the mark with this one.
Um, yes, I do think Silver should have told him at some point before he pointed a gun at Flint because it served his needs. Quite frankly, life doesn’t stop when a war is going on. He could have found the goddamn time. Alternatively, if your assertion is that he was too busy with all the other shit going on, then the suggestion “he was plotting to reunite James and Thomas” is also patently ridiculous, because if he didn’t have time for that conversation, he most certain did not have time to plan to reunite James and Thomas.
I’m still stuck thinking about the fact that Silver all but asked Flint if he’d want to know if Thomas was still alive- if he’d trade the war to have Thomas back- and Flint’s response was a far cry from a resounding “yes”- and the fact that telling him about Thomas right then could have had a disastrous effect on the war, a war which at the time Silver still backed, and which a large portion of fandom is (understandably) enraged that he later stopped. He believed that learning Thomas was alive had the ability to unmake Flint; certainly it would have served to divide Flint’s focus at the worst possible time, given how heavily they were relying on Flint to lead them in the battles.
It’s not that I think people are wrong to be upset that Silver didn’t tell Flint right away, or wrong to be upset that Silver stopped the war, but for people to be mad about *both* simultaneously confuses me, because at least in Silver’s mind, telling Flint about Thomas risked imperiling the war effort. So if the bigger argument is that Silver shouldn’t have done *anything* to get in the way of the fight for freedom, wouldn’t the argument that he should have absolutely done something that *would* have impeded that fight be counter-intuitive?
I like Silver, but I don’t think he deserves to be forgiven for taking away the war from those who were so desperate for it. I wish he’d made different choices, even if the narrative wasn’t designed to allow for it, since the writers were always walking him towards the kind of ending that would make him into Long John Silver. At the same time, I wonder if the outcomes of him making different choices earlier on in season four would have landed the same degree of hate on him by fandom; that if Silver had told Flint about Thomas the moment he confirmed Thomas was still alive, if fans wouldn’t be just as mad at him for not waiting to tell Flint until just a little later, just until everyone could afford for Flint to not fully be Flint any more.
I actually read that scene as absolutely a resounding “yes” that James can’t even bring himself to say because it’s too painful. The suggestion that there’s something he could give up to have Thomas back is too painful to consider for even a second, because then he’d have to return to the reality that Thomas is gone forever. And honestly, as much as I get mad at Silver for his choices, I will acknowledge that yes, Flint would likely have given this war for Thomas. He would give anything for Thomas. If he had had the cache and it was Thomas, not Madi, he would have traded it. And yes, that rather throws a wrench in all my anger at Silver unequivocally ending the war and I will admit that keeps me up at night and everything but this isn’t even about that. It isn’t about whether or not Silver should have/had the right to/whatever phrasing you want to use stop the war; what I was trying to get at with this post is that Silver was absolutely not planning to tell James the truth about Thomas and reunite him with his lost love for the entirety of the season. You’re entirely right that he didn’t tell James right away because at that point he backed the war, and only told him when he didn’t back the war anymore – and putting aside the question of whether or not that was the right thing to do, that immediately invalidates the idea that Silver was “planning to tell James all along.” Like, the crucial point here is that Silver’s stance on the war, and hence on telling James the truth, changed drastically with Madi’s not-death, and that is canonical, and that fact invalidates the idea that Silver had been planning the James/Thomas reunion all along.
And basically I too am confused, because I’ve seen people defend Silver because ending the war was the right thing to do because of the casualties it would have produced, and I’ve seen people defend Silver because he was planning to reunite James and Thomas all along, and you simultaneously can’t have both. Either Madi’s death made him realize the cost of the war and that was the right thing to do, or he had been planning to end the war all along and reunite James and Thomas and that was the right thing to do but honestly, pick one? I’ve seen people claim that Flint’s war was mere rage and revenge and not actually a movement of liberation and thus defend Silver’s ending of it while ignoring that Silver not only allowed it to continue but aided it for a very long time, and if the war is truly terrorism rather than a liberation movement, does that not make him equally guilty?
Basically, the question of the validity of Flint’s war is a really interesting one to me and one I”m happy to have, but I get very annoyed when people defend Silver reuniting James/Thomas “for their own sakes” or to make them happy or because he cared about them because yes, Silver may have had his own very good reasons for ending it but making James happy was not one of them. It was demonstrably not, and if he had cared merely about unmaking Flint he would have freed Thomas rather than, ya know, selling James into slavery.
See I read that conversation about whether Flint would give up the war if he could have Thomas back differently. I thought Flint, at that point, would have given life, limb and gold to get Thomas but he was also thinking about the larger notions of freedom, autonomy and justice. And his answer read to me as “I dearly would but at this point in the war, I may say no.”
And he knows how Thomas thinks. This is a man who probably sacrificed himself to ensure Miranda and James were allowed to leave England with their lives.
And so Flint deflects and says if Thomas were to know what’s at stake, he won’t want me to give up.
And I think that’s probably what unnerved Silver. See that’s scary – Silver knows James’ history and knows his depth of love for the Hamiltons and what their loss drove James to do and here, at this crossroads the man says he might not give up this war even for Thomas. So then, John is now worried that Flint would give them all up for the war.
What Silver doesn’t realize, and this is because he sees only the rage in Flint, is that James thinks differently. Flint is a tactical genius and you can’t plan for contingencies like that. That’s the way of compromises. When and if such a situation were to occur, there would be far more variables in play and that makes it easier to make a move. And if Thomas had come into play, Silver would have received a definite answer.
James is thinking large here and unfortunately, Silver and Rackham and Max believe him to still be fighting for himself.
See, I kind of always read Silver asking Flint if he would give up the war for Thomas as the prelude to what he does in the finale. Because he starts off with asking Madi what would happen if the war ended. If he would be enough for her. If she could give it up, and, like Flint, she doesn’t really answer him, and that scares him. Honestly, though, I think the point at which he realizes Thomas might be alive comes when he’s already realized what the war could cost him. He’s already spoken to Billy. He’s already had the thought planted that he could lose Madi, and that thought tortures him. He says as much to Flint, and then when he finds out that Thomas might be alive, that looks to him like a way to end the war that he already doesn’t want to be fighting, and he waits to tell Flint that Thomas is alive until that information can have maximum effect.
And honestly, yes, I do blame him for not telling Flint about Thomas and for ending the war simultaneously because they’re both wrong for their own reasons and I don’t think it’s contradictory to do so, because honestly I don’t think he really had any expectation that telling Flint about Thomas would end the war, especially after that conversation he had with him during the prisoner exchange. I think he understood that telling Flint Thomas was alive would, at best, serve as distraction for a while and then the war would be back on, hence why he feels it necessary to enslave James to make the war end. If he had felt the war might have ended with Thomas being alive and Flint knowing that, then he could fucking well have freed Thomas, brought him to Flint, and gone “here’s your husband, now STOP.” That’s very demonstrably not how things went down. He kept Thomas’ survival from Flint until the moment he could get Flint separated from anyone who would help him and dragged him North in chains. Bottom line: Silver took a look at the cost of the war to him personally (and the cost to a fair number of other people, I’m not going to deny he did consider that but it wasn’t his primary motivation), decided it was unacceptable, and proceeded to make every effort to end it, including lying to his best friend by omission, lying to the woman he loved, and enslaving his best friend. The point here is that he had no right to do either, and telling Flint about Thomas would not have accomplished Silver’s goal on its own because Flint wasn’t just fighting for himself, he was fighting for what Thomas wanted and for the right to be himself without getting hanged for it. This boils down to what you believe Flint was fighting for, and yeah, if you think it was about rage and nothing else, then yeah, asking Silver to both tell Flint about Thomas and not end the war is contradictory but if you understand that that’s not the only thing driving Flint, then no, they’re not contradicting each other at all.
Meg's Mumbles 